Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

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Ddrak
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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Ddrak » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:33 pm

MeGusta wrote:If I believed in God I would agree with John Calvin in that free will does not exist. So therefore your argument, being predicated on free will, is invalid.
/shrug. I think Calvin was wrong, mainly because it leads to the logical contradiction you posed previously.

@Payne - be skeptical about religion. The bible isn't a good authority for its own veracity and reading a bunch of critical works is a good way to hone your faith.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:19 am

Ddrak wrote:/shrug. I think Calvin was wrong, mainly because it leads to the logical contradiction you posed previously.
This is exactly what I am talking about. You say that you think Calvin is wrong but you give no support to that conclusion other than it would contradict your faith structure so he must be. I think he is wrong too, but only because God does not exist.

If God did exist, John Calvin would be absolutely correct. You cannot have Free Will in mankind if you agree that God is both omniscient and omnipotent. It is impossible. It is called Predestination and is supported by scripture.
John Calvin wrote:They babble and talk absurdly who, in the place of God's providence, substitute bare permission -- as if God sat in a watchtower awaiting chance events , and his judgments thus depended upon human will.
Biblical support:
Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.

John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.

Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one. ~Sigmund Freud

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Ddrak » Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:27 am

Sorry, but I still think Calvinism is cherrypicking and a cheap cop-out on life and the whole christian faith. "God made me do it" is one of the worst evils religion brings. I'll take your verses and raise you some others:

Deut 30:11-19: "Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…."

Genesis: Adam and Eve are created with the free will to choose whether to take the fruit or not, and accept the consequences for their actions when they choose to do so (against God's clear will). Had predestination been in effect, they would not have been able to do this.

Satan himself: Clearly depicted as a fallen angel that chose to move against God and a third of heaven's hosts chose to go with him.

Luke 6:43–45: Jesus says the heart is like a tree: it brings forth good or evil fruit according to its nature. Obvious choice in effect here.

Matt. 15:19: Jesus teaches that “out of the heart” all “evil thoughts,” as well as “murder, adultery, sexual immorality”. Note the source is "the heart", not "God made them be evil".

1 Kings 11:6, 9: Solomon is said to have done “evil in the eyes of the Lord” because “his heart had turned away from the Lord…”. Free choice.

Plenty more examples of people choosing to turn from God's plan in 2 Chron. 12:14, 2 Chron. 36:12–13, Jer. 5:23, Jer. 4:14

Luke 7:30 states the Pharisees "rejected God’s purpose for themselves". Not possible without free will.

Isiah 30:1 is even more obvious: Oh, rebellious children…who carry out a plan, but not mine; who make an alliance, but against my will, adding sin to sin.

There's plenty more, but the Bible is very clear that people have free will to either follow God's plan or follow their own, just as it is clear that God's plan doesn't involve sin or evil. This doesn't mean God isn't omnipotent, but means God himself allows people free will to choose their own fates. Calvinism is and always has been a crock.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:14 am

You are correct. Calvinism is a crock. Because God does not exist.

If God existed then it would be logical.

If God is all knowing and all powerful then He already knows the outcome. Knowledge of that outcome precludes free will. If the outcome is already known then ipso facto it is predetermined.
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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Ddrak » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:07 am

MeGusta wrote:You are correct. Calvinism is a crock. Because God does not exist.

If God existed then it would be logical.

If God is all knowing and all powerful then He already knows the outcome. Knowledge of that outcome precludes free will. If the outcome is already known then ipso facto it is predetermined.
I disagree with that chain of logic. Knowledge of an outcome doesn't preclude free will, only enforcing an outcome precludes free will. One counter argument could run down a parallel universes line with God knowing the outcome of every free action. Another could simply say that just because God knows which way you will freely choose doesn't affect your ability to choose, as long as it's still your choice and not God's.

I also disagree about God existing, but that's a belief thing and a whole different argument that fundamentally results in my illogical position of believing in something I cannot prove or disprove existing, which I'm perfectly happy with.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:08 am

There is the fault, though. You are right. Simply having knowledge of the action does not preclude free will. The combination of knowledge and the ability to effect the outcome does.

Foreknowledge and God's ability to interfere makes the concept of free will a lie. There is also ample biblical evidence of God's interference in free will which proves the point of its illusion.
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one. ~Sigmund Freud

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Kulaf » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:50 am

MeGusta wrote:There is the fault, though. You are right. Simply having knowledge of the action does not preclude free will. The combination of knowledge and the ability to effect the outcome does.

Foreknowledge and God's ability to interfere makes the concept of free will a lie. There is also ample biblical evidence of God's interference in free will which proves the point of its illusion.
Wrong. Having the ability to change an outcome does not change the outcome. And by all means....cite some examples.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:07 am

And by all means....cite some examples.
Oldest logic trap in the book.
Exodus 14

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baalzephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.

3For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in.

4And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

5And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?

6And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him:

7And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.

8And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

9But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon.

10And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD.

11And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?

12Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.

13And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.

14The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

15And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

16But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

17And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

18And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

19And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

20And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

21And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

22And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

23And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.

24And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

25And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

26And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

27And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

28And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

29But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

30Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.

31And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one. ~Sigmund Freud

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Kulaf » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:57 pm

You really need to keep up. I already dealt with this when Embar posted the same thing.
13 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
The nice thing about knowing everything.....is the timing.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:28 pm

Are you attempting to refute that God interfered with the free will of Pharoah?

Pharaoh decided to let them go and God changed his mind for him. I call that interference.
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one. ~Sigmund Freud

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Kulaf » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:00 am

It is a matter of balance. One could argue that the very nature of God sending Moses and performing miracles takes away free will. It is better explained here:

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/48937417.html

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:27 am

The article does not really satisfy the question and at best is theological gymnastics. You only get free will until it is time to be punished then in order to punish you God takes away your free will? Absurd.

If this is indeed the case then you are admitting that God is simply a manipulative Child-God with mankind as a plaything.
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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Kulaf » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:55 pm

If that is indeed the case then humanity is a child-like race as we routinely take away people's free will in order to punish them.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:28 pm

I am not the one who attempts to hold up your non existent God to a higher standard than we hold for ourselves. I know humanity is flawed. It was my understanding that Christians believe that their God is perfect. Nice to see that by your comparison, you do not think so.
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one. ~Sigmund Freud

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Kulaf » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:51 pm

It seems sarcasm is lost on you.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:12 pm

I prefer to see you as agreeing with me, but please do not agree too much. You make your arguments poorly and you may handicap mine by proxy. :lol:
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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Kulaf » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:47 pm

You can prefer to take marching orders from your dog if you wish.....reality doesn't imitate your delusion.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Ddrak » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:51 pm

Let me try to understand your argument. You're saying that God's ability to interfere and his choice not to in the overwhelming majority of cases (assuming he exists and the Old Testament holds true) means free will is an illusion merely because God chose to let us have it when it suited him?

I'd have to say that a lot of the Bible may be prone to a little exaggeration at times and taking it entirely literally is a fairly guaranteed recipe for contradiction at some point or another (aren't the contradictions fairly well documented?). It was written from the point of view of people with their limited understandings of the time and if they said "God hardened Pharoh's heart" then they probably meant "that guy wouldn't let his slaves go, wtf? We gave such a good argument too!".

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by Kulaf » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:33 pm

Well like I was trying to say.....there is quite a distinct possibility that God simply waited for the right ruler to come into power were he knew what the reaction would be. Which is why I cited verse which basically backs that up. MeGusta chooses to ignore it.....and that is his choice to make......but I think it more than adequately backs my hypothesis.

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Re: Divnity of Doubt: The God Question

Post by MeGusta » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:20 am

You can prefer to take marching orders from your dog if you wish.....reality doesn't imitate your delusion.
It would be less delusional than taking marching orders from an imaginary friend in the sky.
Let me try to understand your argument.
The argument is easy to understand. We have free will naturally. Not because a non existent God grants it. Being granted free will by another being is, necessarily, a contradiction in logic.
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one. ~Sigmund Freud

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