Seperation of Church & School

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Minute
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Seperation of Church & School

Post by Minute » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:05 am

Only 28% of HS teachers follow teaching evolution guidelines

The class is called Science, not Magic. This would piss me off to no end if I had a kid in school who was being brainwashed.
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Taxious » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:22 am

A slippery slope for sure. Most of my teachers in high school skirted around the issue as to not piss parents off. Usually in situations like this the parents with the largest mouth wins, I doubt it had little to do with the teachers actually wanting to teach creationism.
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Minute » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:01 am

It's not a slippery slope. In math class you learn that 1+1=2. Science should be the same. We teach what we have scientific evidence to suggest. The Bible is not a source. I can't imagine asking my chemistry teacher why certain compounds would combine with certain alloys & have him tell me because it says so in the bible. If you had a kid come home & tell you that part of the scientific method was factoring in puff the magic dragon you'd be a little concerned. Why is it not the same with this crap?
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Jarochai Alabaster » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:30 pm

Why is it not the same with this crap?
Because people actually believe this nonsense, and belief is stronger than fact.
"I find it elevating and exhilarating to discover that we live in a universe which permits the evolution of molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we."
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Fallakin Kuvari » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:33 pm

:roll:
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Kulaf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:11 pm

Minute wrote:Only 28% of HS teachers follow teaching evolution guidelines

The class is called Science, not Magic. This would piss me off to no end if I had a kid in school who was being brainwashed.
Color me confused. Nothing in that article says religion is involved. It simply says teachers are not following NRC guidelines on teaching Evolution. So what is the issue again?

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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Kulaf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:26 pm

On a seperate note.....there is no way to seperate religion and school. Unless of course you want to remove most of human history from the classroom. I learned about many "gods" in school: Thor, Odin, Magni, Modi, Loki, Ares, Athena, Zues, etc. I learned about Gaia theory in school. I learned about Islam in school. It wasn't presented as religious doctrine, but as the study of other cultures and their beliefs.

So I guess it is ok to study other cultures and their beliefs in school......just not your own.

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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Taxious » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:47 pm

Kulaf wins at having the loudest mouth!
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Kulaf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:51 pm

Says the guy with the mouth stretching avatar.

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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Ddrak » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:02 pm

Religion and science should both be taught in schools, but in their own contexts. Natural selection is part of the scientific theory explaining why things are what they are and how they may be in future and should be presented as such. Creation is part of the Christian religion that explains why things are what they are also should be presented as such.

Obviously you teach these things at a level where kids are mature enough to make the cognitive association.

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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Minute » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:32 am

There is a difference between a world religion class & a biology class. Teaching a child the differences in religious belief isn't the same as telling them that 1 God Day must equal 2 million people days because it says so in a book that has zero science in it. I don't give a shit if you want to teach your kid that magic zombies are their lord & savior, you don't expect your bullshit magic fairytale to be taught to 60 other kids of various backgrounds in a class where they are supposed to be learning evolution.
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Arathena » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:53 am

I didn't get to take biology in High School. I signed up for a class on biology, but I got a birdwatching class instead. If I had a real biology class, well, that just might be my profession today. I really feel like I missed the boat sometimes. :(

But, anyway!

The fundamental takeaway from the science classes that are offered in high school in particular must be the use and application of the scientific method. Science, as a philosophical discipline, is the application of judgement to theory through the lever of evidence. If teachers are failing to lead their students through the method, showing how we use our observations of the natural world to derive evolutionary biology, then they have failed precisely to the same degree as a chemistry teacher who fails to teach the molecular theory in favor of the four elements of Aristotle or a math teacher who tells students that they do not need to believe in the existance of algebra.

And, lurking at the root of the failure is Christianity. If you must study it as culture and literature, then it cannot be prevented. It cannot, however, be prosetylized to the captive audience that is the student body, nor must it be allowed to interfere with the teaching of the objective facts of science.
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Kulaf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:16 am

Really? Just Christianity is the cause of the problem? What scientific evidence can you present to support that hypothesis?

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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Arathena » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:56 am

I rely on confessions of those pressing creationism - as close to proper evidence as can be admitted under sociology.

The Wedge of Intelligent Design: How intelligent design was specifically concieved to remove secular, scientific education from schools in favor of Christianity, in the words of its very creators.

Answers in Genesis specifically and directly declares that their creationist crusade is a Christian apologetics mission.

It is for religious reasons, faith placed in a text of just-so stories, that people deny the facts of evolution, and save those invested in the wedge strategy, they will tell you so straight up. If nothing else, no more than 4% of the nation is a non-Christian religion, and no more than 15% of the US profess to 'no organized religion'. Given that atheists, as a matter of consistency, do not generally support creationism, and that there is no one else, we are left with no one other than Christians to carry the banner of creationism.

Theorizing, under pressure from reality, many religions are able to bend and extract the lessons intended from their stories, however, in this particular case, it is difficult for Christian theology to bend. This is because evolution contradicts the Garden of Eden story, and the Jesus story is the redemption of the Eden story - without Eden and original sin, you have to do some serious respinning of the Christ. It punches out the very foundation of the sects that consider humanity to be completely without its own value. And so, they fight to hold on to their illusions.
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Kulaf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:10 pm

You are opperating under a false premiss. Much like Minute you read the article and made a logical leap that is simply not present. You both read that a certain percentage of teachers are not following NRC guidelines about teaching Evolution and made the leap that they must not be teaching it for religious reasons. You went further and suggested that it is Christians that are the reason. I state that given the information presented, no such logical leap can be sustained.

I further the hypothosis that the majority of pre-secondary science teachers simply do not possess the teaching accumen to intelligently cover the topic.
"Students are being cheated out of a rich science education," said Dr. [Eric] Plutzer, [one of the study's authors and] a professor of political science at Penn State University. "We think the 'cautious 60 percent' represent a group of educators who, if they were better trained in science in general and in evolution in particular, would be more confident in their ability to explain controversial topics to their students, to parents, and to school board members."
So sayeth the studys co-author.

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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Arathena » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:09 pm

Kulaf wrote:You are opperating under a false premiss. Much like Minute you read the article and made a logical leap that is simply not present. You both read that a certain percentage of teachers are not following NRC guidelines about teaching Evolution and made the leap that they must not be teaching it for religious reasons. You went further and suggested that it is Christians that are the reason. I state that given the information presented, no such logical leap can be sustained.

I further the hypothosis that the majority of pre-secondary science teachers simply do not possess the teaching accumen to intelligently cover the topic.
"Students are being cheated out of a rich science education," said Dr. [Eric] Plutzer, [one of the study's authors and] a professor of political science at Penn State University. "We think the 'cautious 60 percent' represent a group of educators who, if they were better trained in science in general and in evolution in particular, would be more confident in their ability to explain controversial topics to their students, to parents, and to school board members."
So sayeth the studys co-author.
And this '60 percent' does not exist in a vaccuum, as much as you would love it to. Teaching evolution at any level entails walking into an incredibly hostile environment, one where Christian ministries arm school children with lists of chaff to throw at their teachers when evolution is mentioned. One where school boards, which have the power to fire teachers, follow their religions and order stickers stating "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things." to be plastered on books containing evolution.

These teachers are well aware of the axe that hangs above their head. While it is neccesary to provide them with the ability to find the information they need to confront the hostile environment, the fact that teachers are afraid to teach is a tremendous problem, rooted entirely in the application of Christianity.
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Fallakin Kuvari » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:38 pm

...

Yes, because the majority of church ministries actively provide "lists of chaff" to children for them to debate with their teachers when evolution is brought up... do you understand how asinine that argument is? Sure, there may be some ministries out there that do that, but its certainly not a common thing. You want to know the biggest hurdle those teachers face? Parents. Have fun trying to explain why we should take kids away from their parents and let the state raise them, I'm sure that will be a hoot. :roll:
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Kulaf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:39 pm

"Rooted entirely in Chiristianity". So none of these teachers don't teach it because they don't know enough about it and don't want to look foolish in front of their class? Really. I think you need to apply some dispasionate analysis and pull your head out of your preconcieved notions and bigotry.

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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Taxious » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:23 pm

Fallakin Kuvari wrote:Yes, because the majority of church ministries actively provide "lists of chaff" to children for them to debate with their teachers when evolution is brought up...
Just out of curiosity, where did you grow up? I remember getting a list of anti-evolution points like this at a Christian camp I used to go to. I think a lot of it would have to do with location though. Purely from my experience, evolution wasn't taught in my high school because rabid Christian parents. I doubt it had anything to do with the teachers thinking their students were smarter than them...
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Re: Seperation of Church & School

Post by Arathena » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:59 pm

Kulaf wrote:"Rooted entirely in Chiristianity". So none of these teachers don't teach it because they don't know enough about it and don't want to look foolish in front of their class? Really. I think you need to apply some dispasionate analysis and pull your head out of your preconcieved notions and bigotry.
No. In short, they don't teach it because they feel that teaching it will make them have to fight for their jobs. Teaching kids to try to embarass the teacher is just one part of it. That same 5-10% of Fundamentalist parents will scream up and down the line at every administrator he can find when his religion is crossed. And we see the support of administration going to creationism over and over again. Because that is who gets elected to school boards. Remember Don McLeroy? Lines like “We have ended the dogmatic teaching of evolution, and we have restored the founders’ idea of a Creator."? Think people like him don't aim for the local district, too?

All it takes to make a science teacher's life a nightmare is one parent and one sympathetic board member.
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