Reality

Some of us think far more than we should
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Re: Reality

Post by Lurker » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:41 pm

I wasn't offended by it being your first post. What was offensive was the argument by dictionary, the narrow column of text, the idiotic humor, and the lame attempt at the end to be shocking. Doubt that's going to improve with practice.

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Re: Reality

Post by Harlowe » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:44 pm

Lurker wrote:I wasn't offended by it being your first post. What was offensive was the argument by dictionary, the narrow column of text, the idiotic humor, and the lame attempt at the end to be shocking. Doubt that's going to improve with practice.
Pretty much this.

It had more to do with your motivation. It just looks pretty lame that you'd create a new account just to help your buddy attack Select.

ETA: I think some of you people really need to look into things like "confronting privilege" or "privilege in society". It's not a new concept. To say racism isn't still a widespread issue is absolutely ignorant. Select might be painting things too black and white, but she's not way out in left field either.

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Re: Reality

Post by Taxious » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:07 pm

Harlowe wrote:To say racism isn't still a widespread issue is absolutely ignorant.
Who is saying that racism isn't still around? Maybe I missed that?

I think people are just getting frustrated with Select's "nu uh, I'm right!" attitude after they've tried to explain to her through 7 pages that she's probably not correct with her stance on this issue.
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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:27 pm

Mukik and Xythe - Your definitions (which, yes, I know) aren't in the right context. Your definitions are the psychological definitions - That racism is an attitude about other people.

Sociology says that racism is an attitude that is able to systematically enact its beliefs over other people through the use of institutions. So in Mukik's post, it's definition 1 and 3 that has power and the ability to be enacted because of 2. The first two beliefs without the power to carry them out are just prejudice.

Fobbon - If it were 101, people would be far more accepting of it. :lol:

Kulaf -
She's just trying to narrow the scope of racism to one definition.
You don't think Mukik and Xythe who agree with you and who posted only psychological definitions are not narrowing it? You don't think that by saying racism isn't racist "jokes" and that people can't naively be racist doesn't narrow it? You think Xythe saying, "oh yeah, one more thing,...Oprah's a nigger. <----- racism" isn't narrowing it?

Xythe -
Just to clarify (there seems to be a bad case of retardation happening)
if you didn't know. Reverse discrimination is denial of
equal protection of the laws and is viewed as discrimination on
the basis of race by opponents of racial quota programs
(a.k.a. reverse racism), while proponents of racial
quotas and affirmative action programs generally view it as
discrimination against members of a dominant or majority group
in order to promote members of a minority or consistently
disadvantaged group (benign discrimination).However, to
the individuals concerned it still discriminates against one in
favor of another based on race/gender/disability.
That's all correct, except that it's called "reverse discrimination" for a reason. "Reverse racism" is an incorrect term. They call it "reverse discrimination" and not "reverse racism" because the disadvantaged group does not have the systematically ingrained power in the system to effectively oppress the majority at an equal level.
A: Jaro NEVER described me in any way, shape or form. He asked if you remember me (and probably meant it rhetorically)
and then stated some facts about me living with 2 homo's for the better part of a decade, whilst making gay jokes.
That's the thing. He didn't need to give much description other than that you live together and you make gay jokes. I can assume you are naively homophobic/racist/discriminatory because everyone is. Everyone does things they're unaware of. The point of it is to recognize your privilege and recognize where you may naively be hurting other people. It's very hard, maybe near impossible to recognize everything, you but you can learn a lot about yourself and make some changes that don't effect your lifestyle or hurt you.
B: Are you trying to imply that I'm am not aware that people naively do things that harm others, that I have no tact or respect for other people that may be within ear shot? Because things like that are situational, would these hypothetical innocent bystanders be eves dropping or not minding their own business? if so, then FUCK 'EM, who was talking to them anyway. For the most part I do mind my surroundings and people within proximity.
That's exactly what I'm saying because you don't recognize your privilege. You've never been around acquaintances or friends or just people in general? I'm sure you don't spend all your time around Jaro. And you're right, who cares if they're within earshot? It's still inappropriate and hurting other people.
Are you trying to imply that I'm am not aware that people naively do things that harm others, that I have no tact or respect for other people that may be within ear shot?
hypothetical innocent bystanders be eves dropping or not minding their own business? if so, then FUCK 'EM, who was talking to them anyway
Er, yes, yes I am. And here you are supporting your own privilege.
For the most part I do mind my surroundings and people within proximity.
I find that hard to believe after the above two quotes. I don't think you care, much less recognize when you are being offensive.

And to the last part of your post, Xythe, I think you and Kulaf are confused about this and have the wrong idea:
Now are you trying to say that minorities cannot be racists?
Minorities cannot be racist towards the majority, the people in power.

Tax - Jaro said something like that.
I think some of you people really need to look into things like "confronting privilege" or "privilege in society". It's not a new concept.
Geez, thank you. I have yet to see one poster address the concept of privilege. They really do need to look into it, because if they don't know what it is (and by not addressing it, it suggests to me that they don't), then they're missing the main point of this topic.
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Re: Reality

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:30 pm

Harlowe wrote:
Lurker wrote:Wow. Talk about piling on. Other than the original statement about jokes which was obviously too absolute to be true, Select hasn't been that wrong about the differences between racism and prejudice to warrant all this backlash and anger.
I know, the backlash has been pretty ridiculous - including the "new" account created just to tell her how wrong she is. :roll:
Oh bullshit, Harlowe (and Lurker)

Select keeps trying to defend her untenable position, and that's what keeps the thread going. As long as she keeps spouting off craziness, people are going to respond to it.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Reality

Post by Lurker » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:32 pm

Can you summarize her crazy, untenable position please?

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Re: Reality

Post by Harlowe » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:43 pm

Tax someone actually said that, I'll have to look back and see, but it wasn't addressed at you unless you said it. She hasn't had the best attitude going into this, but even her "nu uh" sort of attitude really didn't warrant the pile up of outrage and anger. She has a point in some areas, but people are dismissing her entirely just because she's presenting it in a bit of a know-it-all manner and generalized & broadstroked too much. It doesn't make everything she said wrong nor Select "crazy". Privilege is an area she absolutely has a point about and people are entirely ignoring.

Here maybe this will help people think about privilege...
It is imperative to acknowlege and address privilege, because it is the root cause of the "isms" and "phobias" that plague our society. Male privilege begets sexism. Racial privilege begets racism. Sexual privilege begets homophobia. Gender privilege begets transphobia. National privilege begets jingoism. Privilege should not be confused with the "isms" that are its product, but its role must be understood. Anyone who claims to want equality for POC or women or Musllims or the disabled or gays, lesbians and transpeople, but will not recognize privilege, including their own privilege, is at best an ineffective ally, at worst part of the problem.
Privilege is hard for people to embrace. No one wants to admit to having some unfair advantage. In this country of up-by-your-bootstraps, everyone wants to believe that they owe their achievements to their personal efforts alone. It feels far better to think I graduated near the top of my high school class just because I was so much more smart and talented and awesome than my classmates or the many students across the country who failed to graduate. But my considerable efforts are only part of the equation. I know this. Recognizing educational privilege is easy for most everyone. You see a fair amount of lip service paid to the plight of children in failing schools and how we might level the educational playing field. Talking about racial privilege, though, makes people uncomfortable. They equate having white privilege with being racist. They think possessing white privilege makes one a bad person. They think white people are required to feel guilty about the past or turn away from opportunities. None of these things are true.
Confronting one's privilege, whatever sort of privilege it is, means simply this:

- Acknowleging that a quality you possess offers an advantage over others. (That quality is often unearned like race, gender, sexuality, etc., rendering the advantage unfair)
- Recognizing the unique opportunities and successes that your privilege has afforded you
- Exploring how the less privileged are marginalized
- Working to mitigate the marginalization of the less privileged where you can
Confronting privilege is an ongoing exercise, requiring learning, self-reflection and empathy. It is a struggle to be vigilant against something that we are often completely

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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:58 pm

I've been nicely asking her to back off her original statement this entire thread. She's just being stubborn......and trying to widen the topic:
Select wrote:it takes an inherent racist/sexist belief to "joke" about specific groups
Wrong.

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Re: Reality

Post by Harlowe » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:25 pm

I'm not picking on anything in particular you said Kulaf, but there are some people being total assholes to her for no reason other than they enjoy being assholes and took advantage of this opportunity to dog pile on her.There is a way to press a younger person to better explain what they mean or challenge them without turning into enraged, arrogant bullies. Select is probably anywhere from 10-20 years younger than some of you, so you have the upper hand in arguing/debating. You've learned how not to get corned by your own argument, you also should be wiser.

It's oppportunistic and poor sportmanship piling on her like that.

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Re: Reality

Post by Taxious » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:32 pm

I think everyone understands the concept of privilege here. What I'm having a hard time with is that by abusing privilege (by not acknowledging it) we are "constantly hurting other people." Not all words, jokes, and situations regarding race are racist/hurtful. If anything, being overly sensitive to race is just giving racism more power.
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Re: Reality

Post by Taxious » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:37 pm

Harlowe wrote:I'm not picking on anything in particular you said Kulaf, but there are some people being total assholes to her for no reason other than they enjoy being assholes and took advantage of this opportunity to dog pile on her.There is a way to press a younger person to better explain what they mean or challenge them without turning into enraged, arrogant bullies. Select is probably anywhere from 10-20 years younger than some of you, so you have the upper hand in arguing/debating. You've learned how not to get corned by your own argument, you also should be wiser.

It's oppportunistic and poor sportmanship piling on her like that.
LOL that coming from you is something...

Do you remember how much you and Select used to fight on this very website? You've been a "total asshole" to Select more than the rest of the posters in this thread combined.
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Re: Reality

Post by Harlowe » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:44 pm

Select and I playfully fought. We also spoke to each other in PM's. I think there is a difference, also I am more empathetic towards her since she was diagnosed with MS, since someone struggling with something like that doesn't need numerous people being assholes to them.

If you want to use that for an excuse for picking on her, be my guest, but it's weak.

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Re: Reality

Post by Taxious » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:01 pm

Harlowe wrote:I am more empathetic towards her since she was diagnosed with MS
Wow - if there were any reason for Select to be offended in this entire thread I would think it would be right there. You really consider her a wounded animal that can't fend for herself? Damn.
Harlowe wrote:Select and I playfully fought.
Bullshit! Here are some quick finds from using the search function:
Harlowe wrote:Good lord, it's like time and space are in stasis here. Select is still utterly oblivious to what a droning, dull, fuck she is.
Harlowe wrote:I have no criteria for gender when it comes to being an asshole. I am one in general. Men, women, children...doesn't matter. If you're lying, preaching, boring me or being an idiot, you're fair game.

When people love flicking their wisdom (cough..sorry threw up a little) at others ad nauseum, well then they deserve extra attention.

Oh look Select is digging for another nugget to share with the board...
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Harlowe wrote:Select when you actually talk like a grown-up and not the air-headed pathetic lemming that you are, maybe people will stop ridiculing you.

You're not only oblivious to what a joke you are here, you're dull which is a less forgiving.
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Re: Reality

Post by Harlowe » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:05 pm

Oh please, you didn't include the actual exchanges, it was dished back and forth. We had awesome battles and that was the nature of the board at the time as well.

But I've grown up and so has she. That was years ago.

I don't see anything more offensive about being empathetic to Select dealing with a disease, than people being empathetic towards Ddrak being a new father. /shrug

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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:18 pm

Harlowe wrote:I'm not picking on anything in particular you said Kulaf, but there are some people being total assholes to her for no reason other than they enjoy being assholes and took advantage of this opportunity to dog pile on her.There is a way to press a younger person to better explain what they mean or challenge them without turning into enraged, arrogant bullies. Select is probably anywhere from 10-20 years younger than some of you, so you have the upper hand in arguing/debating. You've learned how not to get corned by your own argument, you also should be wiser.

It's oppportunistic and poor sportmanship piling on her like that.
I saw a lot of dog piling on Saev.....what's the difference? He can take it and she can't? Not one of you that jumped on him even tried to engage him in debate.......he is also around the same age as Select if not younger since he just enlisted in the military.

No offense but that's just a double standard.

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Re: Reality

Post by Select » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:55 pm

Tax, in my opinion, Harlowe is not the biggest asshole here. She is an asshole. I am one too, but there are worse. I enjoy her input on a variety of topics because I have seen her take the time to think and I think she's very introspective. Just like I've always enjoyed Freecare's input. I actually enjoying hearing from the both of them more than I do you. *shrug*

And lol that picture. Freshman year I was still wearing glasses and sans style. :lol:

Kulaf - Saevrok was being a hypocrite, a baby, and an all around fake - All things this board can't stand, which is why he was piled on. I'm just having an opinion you and a bunch of others don't like. About the age thing - I'm pretty sure he's a little older than I am.
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Re: Reality

Post by Fobbon Lazyfoot » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:13 pm

That's all correct, except that it's called "reverse discrimination" for a reason. "Reverse racism" is an incorrect term. They call it "reverse discrimination" and not "reverse racism" because the disadvantaged group does not have the systematically ingrained power in the system to effectively oppress the majority at an equal level.
The majority has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Its still racism. Are you saying Saddam's regime wasn't racist because the Sunni sect was an ethnic minority? Are you saying white settlers to New England weren't racist because they were vastly outnumbered by Native Americans? What about Arab slave traders?

The difference between racism and prejudice isn't about a systematic way to oppress. You're degrading it. You are lessening what racism is by trying to pigeonhole some silly jokes into the definition and then back it up. I'll tell you what the difference is - fuck your sociology, and fuck your dictionary while you're at it.

Prejudice is distrust. It is an inherent fear of that which is different from you, and usually stems from ignorance or misunderstanding. Prejudice is not sitting next to the homeless guy on the bus, or crossing the street if theres a big black guy walking towards you in the middle of the night. We were all born prejudiced, its a part of human nature. Would you walk into a pool hall in Chinatown if you were the only white person? What if you knew that asian gang activity was big in that part of town? Would you be scared? Uncomfortable? Thats prejudice.

Racism is hate. Racism is learned and experienced. Racism is at its peak of power when there is a system in place that allows the exploitation of a certain group, and I think thats where you're getting confused, but you're full of shit if you think the system is what racism is. Are there racists purporting the system? Probably. Does racism perpetuate itself through such systems? Most definitely... but racism is not a system. Racism is crosses being burned in peoples yards. Racism is people being shot like cattle for no reason other than their genetic heritage. Hitler had a system to execute his racism, but they didn't need one in Rwanda - they just went out and shot people. No system there. That doesn't make it any less racist. Racism is a horrible, horrible thing and you have shown that you don't understand that. You can pretend to be all passionate about this and that and "save the black people" and "hate is wrong" and all the other hippie bullshit that you want, but you obviously don't understand how it works, and by saying shit like that you're degrading what the word means. You can say that you don't approve of those jokes because they have been used historically to perpetuate a racist attitude, like a lot of racial slurs - and there's nothing wrong with that. I would agree with you. But jokes like that aren't racist. You ever been jumped for being white in the wrong neighborhood? I have. I fucking lived in that neighborhood. I've seen it happen to blacks and asians and russians too, in all kinds of places. Getting your ass kicked for no other reason than the person beating you down simply hates you for your skin color is racism.

Don't try to separate "discrimination" from "racism" either. Discrimination is what happens when racism or prejudice acts. Racist people discriminate, and that leads to separate school systems. Prejudiced people discriminate for a lot of reasons, but its usually not unreasonable, at least within certain mindsets. I can sympathize with a lot of people who are discriminatory on a prejudicial basis. I understand where affirmative action is coming from. I understand when nobody wants to shop at Food 4 Less because of all the russians and koreans that shop there. That does not make me racist.

You ever seen a white comedian make jokes about minorities? Its funny. You know why its funny? Because making fun of our differences makes it easier to deal with them. Barring certain words or jokes (racial slurs, jokes about the holocaust) most jokes you would consider racist are funny, and they're funny even to the majority of the group they're poking fun at. They're funny because they do not have a racist intent. That guy from Seinfeld was being racist. There was a line where his real feelings became obvious, and he crossed it.

Just quit pretending you're better than us, Select, because you're not. You have absolutely no goddamn idea what you're talking about. The day you let me come over to your house and kick your fucking teeth in and break that goddamn ugly Jew nose of yours is the day you will know what you're talking about. Stop trying to use silly little definitions and semantics to make your point, because you don't understand what any of those words mean in relation to each other.
Minorities cannot be racist towards the majority, the people in power.
People keep saying it, and you need to listen: You're wrong. Shut the fuck up.
Kulaf - Saevrok was being a hypocrite, a baby, and an all around fake - All things this board can't stand, which is why he was piled on. I'm just having an opinion you and a bunch of others don't like. About the age thing - I'm pretty sure he's a little older than I am.
I'm going to repeat this: you're wrong. Opinions can't be wrong. Your view is not an opinion, its an incorrect world view.

P.S. I have a jew nose that matches yours. Don't go on a tirade about that either.
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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:17 pm

Select wrote:Kulaf - Saevrok was being a hypocrite, a baby, and an all around fake - All things this board can't stand, which is why he was piled on. I'm just having an opinion you and a bunch of others don't like. About the age thing - I'm pretty sure he's a little older than I am.
Was that before or after you all jumped him? And let's not get started on the subject of fakery in this thread. And I have no problem with your "opinions"........I have a problem with what you stated as "fact."

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Re: Reality

Post by Lurker » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:25 pm

Kulaf wrote:Was that before or after you all jumped him?
From his opening line.

Excuse us for not engaging the guy who wanted to nuke the entire middle east in some philosophical debate about reality, or how humanity is evil and not worth saving, or if the real problem is that nobody listens enough and everyone is right about everything, or wrong about everything, or how he has no regrets but really wishes he could go back and change things (which means he has regrets!), or any of the other confusing and contradictory crap he posted. And then he tops all that off with a threat.

I'm just not seeing any similarities.

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Re: Reality

Post by Kulaf » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:37 pm

Lurker wrote:
Kulaf wrote:Was that before or after you all jumped him?
From his opening line.

Excuse us for not engaging the guy who wanted to nuke the entire middle east in some philosophical debate about reality, or how humanity is evil and not worth saving, or if the real problem is that nobody listens enough and everyone is right about everything, or wrong about everything, or how he has no regrets but really wishes he could go back and change things (which means he has regrets!), or any of the other confusing and contradictory crap he posted. And then he tops all that off with a threat.

I'm just not seeing any similarities.
Well then why didn't you just let it alone? Why did you feel the need to attack him?

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