Punisnment for Children / Discipline

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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Arathena » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:32 am

I have been spanked for disciplinary reasons. I have also, as a child, been beaten for someone else's malicious enjoyment.

The line isn't fuzzy or thin at all. It's drawn in big, bold lines, and it has very little to do with how hard you're being hit, or what you're being hit with, and you're shitting down your own throat if you think a kid can't tell the difference between punishment and sadism.

Oh, yeah -- bare handed was always the worst in my eyes.
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Klast Brell » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:06 am

Don't have kids, so I can't speak from that kind of experience. But I remember that when I was 5 or 6 the punishment that I feared and hated the worst was being made to sit quietly in a chair facing a big clock for 5 minutes. At that age it felt like the second hand would take days to go around one time. If I said anything or got out of the chair I would get 5 more minutes added to my sentence.
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Harlowe » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:23 am

Arathena wrote:I have been spanked for disciplinary reasons. I have also, as a child, been beaten for someone else's malicious enjoyment.

The line isn't fuzzy or thin at all.
It's drawn in big, bold lines, and it has very little to do with how hard you're being hit, or what you're being hit with, and you're shitting down your own throat if you think a kid can't tell the difference between punishment and sadism.
Absolutely agree.

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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Torakus » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:00 pm

I grew up getting my ass kicked by my old man. I took those lessons and turned them into a successful 22 year military career and now am a fairly successful safety manager in the civilian world, a happy marriage and a 6 figure salary. I have never been in jail (in the U.S.), in fact I only have 1 traffic ticket in my entire adult life. I vote in every election, I participate in my community as much as I can and I actually have friends (even though I am a dick). So I guess the ass kicking didn't ruin me completely and appear to have taught me some of the right lessons.

On to my children, who I never spanked. I spent thousands of hours trying to teach my children the right lessons, explaining right from wrong, trying to use positive reinforcement in every case. Although none of them are on the street using drugs or committing crimes, they are all still clinging to mom's tit and dad's pocket book. There isn't an ounce of independence in any of the three, and none seem interested in making any sort of sacrifice to better themselves.

Looking back, I may have taken a different path in life had a couple of the ass kickings I took never happened, but just the same I am glad my Dad took the time to correct me, and more recently I regret not taking the opportunity to adjust my son's a little better with an ass kicking or two.

Like the Mexican beer bottles say "Todo con medida".

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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Select » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:03 pm

Ass-whooping won't necessarily prevent entitlement whores. It's what you give them and how much you enable the behavior. It's how effective you were at developing a value system and an understanding of that system in them. Something somewhere didn't happen/happen often enough.

Back to the discussion aspect of discipline. The punishments I remember most (because I resent them) were when I felt I was unfairly punished because no one took the time to hear how I was understanding/misunderstanding the situation. By the time the fourth kid came around, the parents were much better at listening and understanding. And if they don't, my sister and I will quickly jump in to be the voice for our younger siblings.
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Kulaf » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:27 pm

Honestly Select if I was your dad and you tried to interject your opinion into my diciplining of your younger sibling.....you'd be out the door. It's simply not your place and imo shows a great disrepect to your parents that you would do so. You're just undermining their authority.

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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Select » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:44 am

My sister and I love our siblings too much to see them punished for something they didn't do/over a misunderstanding. Our parents have a great respect for our ability to teach and help raise our younger siblings. I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's not how things work in this family.
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Harlowe » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:25 am

Honestly Select if I was your dad and you tried to interject your opinion into my diciplining of your younger sibling.....you'd be out the door. It's simply not your place and imo shows a great disrepect to your parents that you would do so. You're just undermining their authority.
That's not disrespectful. She's not saying they jump in to give their parenting advise or opinion.....they are giving the parents more information so they can make a better choice. If someone is being blamed or punished for something they didn't do or a misunderstanding (I'm not talking about just making up excuses for them), how in the world is it disrespectful to interrupt an unfair punishment to shed some light on the situation.

I think it's ridiculous to expect siblings to stand by and watch a brother or sister get punished for something they didn't do out of so-called "respect".

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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Select » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:32 am

I think it's ridiculous to expect siblings to stand by and watch a brother or sister get punished for something they didn't do
We gleefully did that when we were little and full of sibling rivalry. :)
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:16 am

Lurker wrote: If you have to make your kids think you'll kill them or that you'll leap across the table at them, you have failed as a parent. Quickly resorting to violence, like backhanding someone across the mouth when verbally correcting their language would work, is a sign of lazy parenting.
My child believes that if she behaves in a manner befitting such a punishment that she will get what she deserves.
Discussing correct behavior and the consequences of their actions with your kids is not bargaining. Debating the details of the punishment after the fact, or whether to follow through at all, is bargaining and the part most parents fail at.

It's very simple. Never threaten a punishment you can't follow through on. Always follow through on the punishment.
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I agree with the rest of it
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:02 am

i tried to edit then took a phone call and then it was too late.



I try to explain to my children that every action has a consequence that leads to another action. If you pick up your room before bedtime, then the next day you can go outside and play, if not then you have to stay inside and pick up your room. If i have to do it then everything sitting around is going to be thrown away if i think it's trash, if you don't think it's trash, then you should have put it away.

If you use your cell phone for activities that you aren't supposed to be doing (using the internet, browsing ring tones) then it'll be taken away, if you yell and scream and hit another child at the playground then you'll need to explain what the problem was, and apologize and you'll probably be spanked. All children should and generally are taught to use their words. It's OK to get angry, it's not ok to scream and hit, and yes when the parent screams at the child and then hits them, what have they taught them ? If you EXPLAIN to your child WHY they were wrong, and WHY you're spanking them it's not wrong, it's effective punishment, for some children (for my 9 year old it works, for my 6 year old time out is more effective, because he's realized the spankings don't hurt very much, they aren't intended to leave them shaking, they're intended to enforce whats being said, for him it doesn't work, for her it does). You should always explain things to your children, thats what makes the difference between a good parent and a bad one.

my 2 year old has a habit of shrieking, as most 2 year olds do, he is told that we don't scream, thats not how we get what we want, and he's put in time out. If you tell him about time out he cries and gets out his little chair, puts it in the time out spot and sits in it. He's 2, he gets 2 minutes in time out, and i tell him. He doesn't understand the time, but i tell him 2 minutes, then i tell him 1 minute. If he gets up, he's put back in the chair and told "Time out, 2 minutes" and shown 2 fingers. Most of the time it's effective.

Parenting is hard, striking a balance between whats most effective and whats right isn't as hard, figuring out whats spanking and whats beating isn't hard at all.

SO here's my question, maybe someone has a good answer. My 2 year old hits his siblings, and pulls their hair and their ears... in the car. If he hits with a toy he's told not to hit, and the toy taken away, so he screams and hits with his hands (which i can't take away). Often times i can't separate him from the other kids as i have junk in the back of the Durango, or i'd split the kids uo more. When i'm driving there's really nothing i can DO about it... any suggestions ?
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Select » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:15 am

He's two, so this might be better for an older kid. Get them a treat while on the road and he gets nothing and explain that it's because he hit?
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:19 am

The oldest feeds him crackers every time he shrieks i discovered, so i've had to break that otherwise he'll just scream for food, and eat because he's bored. I try to take a sippy cup and snacks and toys for long car rides (like meeting with the ex, it's a 5 hour round trip ordeal, so we take several toys, snacks and cups, as well as diapers lol). I just don't know what to do about it. I vaguely remember the other kids going through this phase, but there were only 3, if it was just me in the car then one on each side of the back and one up front solved the problem.
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Ddrak » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:22 am

@Lulu:
But, when I say competition, I mean "I will WIN over you at all costs" and that it is more about the parent's EGO than anything else. Trust me, I've been in a position where you are disciplining a child and it's a game to them, and there's this voice in your head that says, "you little shit, this isn't funny. I AM THE PARENT and you just wounded my pride," but you put that aside and look at the long term goal.
I really don't get what you're talking about here. No discipline is about winning or losing. It's about you being the parent and them being the child. It's about the child not being allowed to contravene the boundaries that the parent has set in place. It's not about winning or losing, but about the child knowing the boundaries are not something to be negotiated on their terms but something that is the sole discretion of the parent.

The long term goal is to develop the kid into a well adjusted adult and if you give ground on discipline then you're really going entirely against that goal.
It's not a weird popularity argument. You're welcome to visit the parenting boards that I frequent to see that the majority of people don't agree with spanking (with the hand,) let alone using a strap, spoon, shoe, etc
Nah, it would just depress me about the future. I don't have a problem with you setting your own methods, just with what seemed to me to be stating that someone else's methods which aren't any more or less abusive than hand spanking were somehow "abuse". Now we've cleared up what we each meant, I don't have an issue any more.


@Fobbon:
Punishment does absolutely nothing if the child does not understand why the rule is there in the first place.
Rubbish. Punishment does *less* if the child doesn't understand, but there's some concepts that are simply rules for no better reason than "because I said so".

The rest of your post I basically agree with though.


@Garrdor/Lurker
Establishing violence early on in a childs life will teach them that it's ok to use violence to punish others. It's a vicious cycle.
Not true. Using meaningless or excessive violence, sure. Not using corporal punishment when it's the most effective avenue of discipline will result in undisciplined adults who are far more likely to be violent than someone who's grown up disciplined.

However, I do agree with Lurker's points on bargaining. Never threaten something you won't follow up on. That's sends all sorts of wrong messages.


Overall, I believe you use the minimum necessary force to discipline kids. I don't believe in taking spanking etc. off the table but obviously if that's not the most effective route for the child then you don't use it, and it shouldn't be the first thing you jump at short of extreme/dangerous situations. Teaching the kids right from wrong is far more important than punishing wrong over right, and if you're getting it right then the punishment should be fairly uncommon.

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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Torakus » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:04 pm

Select wrote:Ass-whooping won't necessarily prevent entitlement whores. It's what you give them and how much you enable the behavior. It's how effective you were at developing a value system and an understanding of that system in them. Something somewhere didn't happen/happen often enough.

Back to the discussion aspect of discipline. The punishments I remember most (because I resent them) were when I felt I was unfairly punished because no one took the time to hear how I was understanding/misunderstanding the situation. By the time the fourth kid came around, the parents were much better at listening and understanding. And if they don't, my sister and I will quickly jump in to be the voice for our younger siblings.
Please, go raise three or more children for 18 years and experience what it is that you are commenting on. What didn't happen/happen often enough was the swift kick in the ass and that was my point, it is effective and most definitely will knock the entitlement whorishness out of them.

Unless of course you are telling me that you got your ass whooped and still ended up an entitlement whore, then I take it all back.

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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Select » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:42 am

Not using corporal punishment when it's the most effective avenue of discipline will result in undisciplined adults who are far more likely to be violent than someone who's grown up disciplined.
Where did you read this?

Tor, you're the one who mentioned where he failed as a parent. ;) I do not believe ass-kicking is what would prevent it. I firmly believe it's how children are taught to approach the world, the resources they're given, and the values they have. And based on your point, I could present you with a child who didn't get their ass whooped and didn't end up an entitlement whore, because you're basically saying that without ass-kickings, the result is entitlement.
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Re: Punisnment for Children / Discipline

Post by Fobbon Lazyfoot » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:51 pm

Rubbish. Punishment does *less* if the child doesn't understand, but there's some concepts that are simply rules for no better reason than "because I said so".
An understanding is due even for the "because I said so" arguments, even if its just an understanding of trust between the parent and child.

I think you're right if just the short-term consequences of the punishment are looked at, but I think I was looking more at long-term effectiveness. Sheer parental authority can only grip so long.
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