Denial

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Klast Brell
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Re: Denial

Post by Klast Brell » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:43 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Sorry Klast, if you read that eHarmony article carefully, and I mean REALLY carefully, you'll see that
1) No one knows the extent of infidelities
2) The article says it can't establsih one true cause (but if you read deeper, it's all about a selfish choice.. hey we make them all the time)

People who commit infidelity do so because they feel their emotional needs are more important than anyhting else. Hell, I'd like to say it was rational thought, but it's not. It's primal. It's all about preservation of self, and so can't be grouped with higher thought. Sure, there's rational thought involved, but it's completely overwhlemed by the lizard brain. I'm convinced that some people are pretty much immune to it, and some people will succumb most every time.

Again, Klast is dead-wrong about infidelity being about needs not being met in a relationship. It's about the person not feeling good enough about themselves to succumb to infidelity. No relationship will address or solve that very personal, very intimate, view of one's self. People who cheat are incomplete (we all are to some degree), but at the core, they are very, very selfish people. Doesn't mean they can't evolve and learn, some can. But at the stage of their lives where they can choose to betray others who they profess to care about, they are deluding themselves about their capacity for empathy and love.

Sorry Klast, this fits you bro. You haven't seen the truth of this yet, and until you do, you're living in a denial of yourself. Your statements of "If I want to cheat, I'll tell you and break up" are pretty pathetic, if you ask me. You think you're doping your wife a favor by telling her that? You think you're somehow noble by giving the "heads-up" if you want to cheat?

For one... if it comes down to it, you'll cheat, and you won't tell her. Why? Because people who don't want to cheat, won't. You'd be better off by saying "Honey, I fell myself attracted to another woman, and I know that signals something is causing me to drift from the relationship. I don't wan't to drift, and I want your help. Let's explore this together."

What.. you're gonna just let it get to the point of infidelity and give her the choice of staying or going? You're one brave fucking guy Klast. Way to take the high road. Way to be truthful (but not honest).
Whuh? Are we talking about the same thing here? I've noticed in the past when the topic of infidelity has come up on this board you've had some very strong reactions. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you here, but I get the feeling that at some point you were badly hurt by infidelity. Maybe you cheated on someone and the consequences were disastrous. Maybe someone cheated on you and it devastated you. I say this because when I read your posts on the subject I feel like there is some context missing that would make your idea more understandable. Like you are thinking about something that happened to you while you write, and maybe your posts would be more understandable if we knew what that was.

So will you tell us? What happened?
"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan 1987

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Re: Denial

Post by Alluveal » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:40 am

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Re: Denial

Post by Taxious » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:40 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote:people who don't want to cheat, won't.
Although I think it gets a little more complicated than this some times, I completely agree.
Fobbon Lazyfoot wrote:Back to the subject of denial, though, I think its not a bad idea if you have better shit to do than be stressed out. If my GF cheated on me during week 9 I probably would let myself deny it until after finals =P
Yeah, I probably should have done this. I use MMOs to escape from reality at times like this, but then I end up wanting to keep playing instead of going to class.
Klast Brell wrote:Found this on reddit just now.
http://advice.eharmony.com/article/can- ... 00&aid=701.
Freecare Spiritwise wrote:I wonder if Mrs. Klast knows that you're surfing eHarmony ;)
lolreddit
Ariannda Kusanagi wrote:He called me up a couple of months ago and asked if he could have the kids one off weekend, as he'd "be in the area". First I said yes, then I had some questions. I mean if he was going to be close because of some work training or extra schedule or something I just wanted to the know the schedule so that I could make arrangements. The further and further I dug into it the worse of a feeling I got so finally i came right out and told him "If you're shacking up with some bitch you're not having the kids... period. I don't care if it's after your tryst, i won't allow them to be around you at all during that period of time". He seemed a little taken aback to begin with, but that was indeed his plan. I'm sure the kids were also a cover for his whereabouts.
Wow, he sounds like a dbag.
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Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:46 am

@ Klast

Nope, I won't elaborate. One person on this board knows the story, and that's enough.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Denial

Post by Alluveal » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:02 am

Yeah, I think it's a lot more than "well, my needs are not being met." There is no relationship out there where you see both parties getting "their needs met" 100%. Nobody.

I've never cheated on someone I've been committed to, ever. The idea has come up, many times. There's someone you meet that you have this instant spark with, that has more in common, that "gets you" and compliments you. But, you make the choice not to do it. You look at the person you're with and you say, "I respect you enough not to do this to you. I love YOU, even though we're lacking in some areas here."

I guess I've always looked to friends to fulfill any needs that I don't get from my relationships. If the guy I'm dating isn't into MMO's, then I have my MMO friends. If the guy I'm dating isn't into the symphony or art shows, then I go with my art-show friend and have a damn good time.

I will say that sex needs to be there, at least for me. It has to be working in the relationship. If not at first, then both need to be willing to meet each other halfway and do some tweaking/changing to make it work (barring any real sick shit or something the other person feels extremely uncomfortable doing.)

Women, in particular, often have issues saying, "Hey motherfucker, I need X, Y and Z here and I'm not getting it. Come over here and let me show you what I want."
Last edited by Alluveal on Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Denial

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:03 am

Taxious wrote: lolreddit
Ariannda Kusanagi wrote:He called me up a couple of months ago and asked if he could have the kids one off weekend, as he'd "be in the area". First I said yes, then I had some questions. I mean if he was going to be close because of some work training or extra schedule or something I just wanted to the know the schedule so that I could make arrangements. The further and further I dug into it the worse of a feeling I got so finally i came right out and told him "If you're shacking up with some bitch you're not having the kids... period. I don't care if it's after your tryst, i won't allow them to be around you at all during that period of time". He seemed a little taken aback to begin with, but that was indeed his plan. I'm sure the kids were also a cover for his whereabouts.
Wow, he sounds like a dbag.
I think he's terribly unhappy. My ex husband ranks things in order of importance like this
1. Sex
2. Money
3. Sex

She's not putting out but here's the problem (i know from personal experience with him). She's feeling ignored, so she won't have sex with him, so he gets upset and pissed off andd goes out to the garage to fix cars, ignoring her more, so she doesn't give him sex, so on and so forth. It's a vicious cycle and one he hasn't figured out although I've tried to tell him if he'd be a little bit nicer, pay a little more attention to her she'd probably be willing to give him what he wants.... however no one wants to feel like they're being used for sex and thats the only reason a person is paying attention to them, to get sex out of them. Honesty and communication are key in relationships for reasons just like that. Cheaters, in my experiance, ARE lacking something in their relationships, however instead of trying to FIX the real problem they just cover is up with their own lies and denials.
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Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:25 am

Ari - Cheaters lack something in THEMSELVES.. which then go on an affect the relationship. Again, someone who commits infidelity lacks something inside themselves, they are incomplete, and they blame aspects of the relationship so they can rationalize (lie) to themselves so they can cheat.

@ Klast - Here's a question for you... when you were cheating on your significant other, what did you have to tell yourself to give yourself permission to do something so selfish?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Denial

Post by Klast Brell » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:06 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote:@ Klast - Here's a question for you... when you were cheating on your significant other, what did you have to tell yourself to give yourself permission to do something so selfish?
I'm going to have to think hard about that. It was 20 years ago. The girl wanted me, and that made me feel good. It made me feel good about myself, that someone would want me. The same feelings I would have if I had been single when I met her.
At the time I didn't really have a concept of how much it hurt to be cheated on. I also did not have the sense of ethics I have now. What it comes down to was a lack of empathy. Both in that I was unaware of what it would feel like to be the victim, and in that I was a teenager and still pretty immature.

What did I have to tell myself to justify it? That there would be no harm if I didn't get caught? What my girlfriend doesn't know won't hurt her? Honestly I can't remember rationalizing it or wrestling with the morality of it. I remember planning an alibi i could give to my girlfriend if she asked me where I had been that night. But I don't remember having moral qualms about it.

Today I would have moral qualms. I have been in situations where I could tell that a woman was attracted to me and I definitely was attracted to her. And while the thought of sleeping with that woman crosses my mind, I do not act on it in any way. It's just a pleasant fantasy. My usual reaction is to start saying nice things about my wife. To make it clear that I am taken and we both know it.
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Re: Denial

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:33 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Ari - Cheaters lack something in THEMSELVES.. which then go on an affect the relationship. Again, someone who commits infidelity lacks something inside themselves, they are incomplete, and they blame aspects of the relationship so they can rationalize (lie) to themselves so they can cheat.
Yeah well honestly at this point i'd have to say it has something to do with the fact his wife, the woman he lost his virginity to, the woman he married and had children with is no longer in his life in the same capacity nor are his children. I'd say he's lacking a whole lot in himself... however he uses the excuse about his wife to rationalize everything else, and his wants and needs are clearly more important then anyone elses. I don't know what his problem was when we were married, i can only see his situation now from the outside and it gives me a better idea.
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Re: Denial

Post by Harlowe » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:34 am

Great for you Harlowe.

Have you lived what you're commenting on?
I think everyone over the age of 20 has been on both sides of the issue at some point. There is no right or wrong way to deal with it, is what I am saying - you deal with it the best that you can. Why belittle anyone else's mechanism for dealing with infidelity?

Some people can move on from infidelity with a person and others simply can not. Everyone has their breaking point, their line in the sand that emotionally or morally they are unwilling to cross.

There is no shame in either path.

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Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:00 am

It's not about belittling Harlowe, its about uncovering the motivations behind infidelity. Blaming infidelity on anyhting other than the person who commits it is a dishonest portrayal of why infidelity happens. Infidelity is always a selfish act, do you disagree?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Denial

Post by Harlowe » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:07 pm

No I don't disagree, the only thing I had a problem with was how you belittled Klast just for having a different philosophy about how he deals with infidelity. I mean, sure that's what we do here is attack each other's philosophy, but in this case, it feels more like pointing out that someone is eating their hot dog wrong because they don't put mustard on it and everyone knows the best way to eat a hot dog is with mustard. For the most part, imo, there isn't a wrong way to deal with this as long as it's handled with honesty.

Klast is saying that he would rather have an agreement that they part ways if one of them is going to start fucking someone else. Not just has a passing fantasy/flirtation, but really feels they are going to/want to go and screw someone else. In a committed monogomous relationship, there is nothing wrong with making monogamy a requirement and when you can no longer keep up your end of that agreement - you end it as respectfully as you can. I just don't see anything wrong with his philosophy. If you think that people should attempt to work it out and salvage the relationship because they might come out stronger - there isn't anything wrong with that either. As long as both parties are on board for it, good for them.

Basically, I don't think anyone knows best on this or should claim to. I think it's something only each individual can figure out and agonize over for themselves.

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Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:31 pm

I don't ahve an issue with Klast (or anyone else) making some arrangement with their significant others about when to bail out. That's an agreement before the fact, and entirely acceptable to me. Being honest with your partner about how you stand on certain issues and how you want to deal with certain issues should happen more in relationships, in my opinion.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Denial

Post by Lurker » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:35 pm

Embar wrote:Infidelity is always a selfish act, do you disagree?
Are you saying that the person cheated on is never at fault?

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Re: Denial

Post by Klast Brell » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:19 pm

Lurker wrote:
Embar wrote:Infidelity is always a selfish act, do you disagree?
Are you saying that the person cheated on is never at fault?
Oh come on now Lurker. That's BS. You are trying to frame it or something? Answering a question with a question is not your style. Your question implies that there are times when someone can drive their spouse to cheat. I can see a situation where a spouse's actions are the straw that breaks the camel's back. Where the spouse is one of the many factors that lead the cheater to to another person's bed. But the sole factor? I can't believe that.
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Re: Denial

Post by Lurker » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:29 pm

I agree. But Embar has made statements that strongly imply the root cause is internal to the person cheating. That prompted my question.

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Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:46 pm

The person who is cheated on is never at fault for the decision to cheat. Never.

That should not be taken as the person who is cheated on didn't in some way contribute to the dynamic in the realtionship, however the way one chooses to handle problems in a relationships is soley the responsibility of the person making the choice.

I'm sure you wouldn't say that it is ever excusable to smack around a partner because of what he/she says or does in a relationship.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Denial

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:10 pm

He's got you there Lurker.

While I don't see anything wrong with Klast's philosophy, I'm fully on board with Embar's thoughts on personal responibility. The devil made me do it. She deserved to get cheated on. All excuses. If you've broken that sacred trust, the only place to look is in the mirror IMO.

Sure, we're all flawed excuses for human beings and no one is immune to stupidity, but trying to sugar coat and rationalize away that stupidity goes against my philosophy of personal responsibility.

I expect to pay the piper for all my acts of stupidity. If I ever cheat on my wife, I'll take the consequences like a man and not try to rationalize it away. Luckily I'm working on 12 years of fidelity and don't have any plans to change that.

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Re: Denial

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:46 pm

Embar Angylwrath wrote:The person who is cheated on is never at fault for the decision to cheat. Never.

That should not be taken as the person who is cheated on didn't in some way contribute to the dynamic in the realtionship, however the way one chooses to handle problems in a relationships is soley the responsibility of the person making the choice.

I'm sure you wouldn't say that it is ever excusable to smack around a partner because of what he/she says or does in a relationship.
Valid points, however I believe 100% there are people who don't say "go on, cheat on me, i dare you" but their actions speak otherwise. Now it's not their fault that the other person DID cheat, but driving a person to it certainly happens. In the end the cheater is to blame, certainly and of course 100% but there's a huge difference between believing you're in a stable happy relationship and being the biggest asshole, with holding sex, money and everything else, emotionally, physically etc abandoning your partner and then claiming you're the victim because they did cheat. The person being cheated on isn't responsible, but they're not always the victim they'd like everyone to believe they are.

And to add another point I believe there are some women who deserve it when they're finally smacked across the face. It's not right, and it's not fair but again if some woman hits her husband repeatedly, and is physical towards him then one day it's a probably retaliation. I know such a woman, she used to hit her husband, i mean punch him in the face, hold him back from walking out the door and one day he turned around, smacked her across the face and walked out the door. The last time she was him was in divorce court. I don't believe he was right in hitting her, but she certainly had it coming.... Ok maybe that's not right either, had it been another woman she'd done it to, it'd have happened a whole lot sooner.

Anyway my point is that while the person who's been cheated on is not responsible for that choice their partner made, they may have certainly contributed significantly to that choice that was made.

I also support Klasts arrangement and have had similar ones of my own. I point blank told my husband if he wanted someone else he was free to have her, just have the decency and respect for me to leave me first.
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Re: Denial

Post by Klast Brell » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:51 pm

I feel odd using a word like honor, but it's part of the equitation to me.

If you cheating on your partner is a dishonorable act. Ending your relationship with your partner, then starting a new relationship with someone else lets you keep your honor.
"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan 1987

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