Denial

Some of us think far more than we should
User avatar
Harlowe
Nubile nuptaphobics ftw
Posts: 10640
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:13 pm
Location: My underground lair

Re: Denial

Post by Harlowe » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:15 pm

Taxious wrote:Fuck it, I need to rant some about this. The guy I'm talking about is me, and the "girl" was my BF. Thanks a lot, asshole, for making me feel even more shitty about life and myself. GDI I wish I wasn't such a horrible judge of character.

This makes me 2 for 2 so far on the "I get into shitty relationships" scale. Both times I've been in lolove, it's ended because I find out the guy is cheating on me. Notice that it's "I find out" and not "they tell me" either. No one fucking cares until it's over, then it's all "I miss you, I love you, blah blah blah."
Klast Brell wrote:I hope they were using condoms.
Yes.
Select wrote:Yea, your friend isn't apathetic for sure. Just a ploy so he feels better. He's coming up with lame excuses to justify it because deep down under the denial, he hates it and he knows exactly how he feels. Just keep watching and you'll see problems surface. Though, the wimp needs to at least talk to her about it.
Correct. I do hate what happened, but part of me honestly thinks that there isn't much better. Maybe this is just the way things are in the world and I'm the one that needs to change. I hate to play the "homo" card, but perhaps we live in different worlds where cheating is normal? Every gay couple (even the 10+ year ones) I've known has had some issue in their relationship where one of the people has fucked someone else.

This emotional stuff kills me, I'm not sure how to handle it. I keep reminding myself that with time, things will wash away, but it sure sucks right now.
You know, I have a lot of respect for you having the balls to just open up about it and admit it's you.

It's not you, it's just young adult relationships. Most young couples I know struggle with this - gay and straight. It's more of 20's thing I swear. It seems like once people get to their late 20's and then enter their 30's they are finally ready to really commit to someone. This is in the broadest of general terms, because some people never are ready, but I think when we get to this point, we're not worried about what we might be missing, we're more self-confident, more financially secure, we're growing into who we are going to be and know more about what we want. I think all of that lends to healthier more mature relationships. We start picking people that "fit", we have higher standards. It's not ONLY about what we're attracted to physically (thought chemistry is really important), but the entire package and that includes how they make us feel, is there trust and mutual respect? That sort of thing. Cheating is a violation of both those things that are really the foundation of a relationship.

I really don't think it has anything to do with being gay other than it's double the male dynamic of a relationship. Two of the gay male couples I know are both going through the process of adoption right now and have been married for 4-5 years & the other 8 years (they are in the 29-34 yr old neighborhood). Actually in my circle the lesbians seem to be the biggest cheaters - they so easily move in with the next girl it's amazing. The joke is true, what does a lesbian bring on her second date? A U-Haul.

User avatar
Alluveal
vagina boob
Posts: 3981
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:11 pm
Location: COLORADO

Re: Denial

Post by Alluveal » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:51 pm

I'm sorry, Tax. You don't deserve that shit.

Like I said, the perpetrator needs to be kicked in the junk.

What a cumsicle.

User avatar
Klast Brell
Sublime Prince of teh Royal Sekrut Strat
Posts: 4315
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:17 am
Location: Minneapolis MN
Contact:

Re: Denial

Post by Klast Brell » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:19 am

In my teens I both cheated and was cheated on. Cheating seemed fun at the time. When I was cheated on I saw how much it hurt. The funny thing was I was cheated on by the same girl I had been unfaithful to. It all snapped in to perspective at that point. To the cuckold it is a violation of trust that will never be completely recovered. The couple may come to terms with it. Forgive and reforge the bonds of the relationship. But there will always be that nagging doubt.There may be renewed trust, but it will never again be complete trust.

After that I did a lot of hard thinking and self examination. I came to a conclusion. It may not be the right one for everyone, but it's the right one for me. I have been with Mrs Klast for 10 years so I haven't given this speech in a long time. But every time I started a new relationship that was looking like it was getting serious this is what I would tell her.

"I believe people cheat because they are not getting what they need from the relationship. After all if you were getting what you wanted from the relationship, you would have no reason to seek out something more. If you are going to sleep with someone else you are not getting what you need from me. And if you are not fulfilled by this relationship you shouldn't be in it. If you decide you are going to sleep with someone else, break up with me first. If I am not giving you what you need, break up with me. If you cant find satisfaction and happiness with me, leave me. Being dumped hurts. But being cheated on hurts so much more.
I promise you that if I want to cheat I will break up with you first. I won't hurt you that way. And I expect the same from you. If I find out you cheated on me I will dump you on the spot. I won't listen to apologies. I won't consider the mitigating circumstances. I will dump you right then and there."

I only had one woman tell me she was breaking up with me on those grounds. It hurt. But not as bad as being cheated on. I thanked her. I told her she did the right thing. I thanked her for her honesty and integrity. And we moved on with our separate lives. When I think about her these days I don't think "that bitch". I remember the good times and smile.
"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan 1987

User avatar
Taxious
Rum Guzzler
Posts: 5054
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:16 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Denial

Post by Taxious » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:30 am

Harlowe wrote:It's not you, it's just young adult relationships. Most young couples I know struggle with this - gay and straight. It's more of 20's thing I swear. It seems like once people get to their late 20's and then enter their 30's they are finally ready to really commit to someone.
The "big thing" that got me wasn't the infidelity, but more the lying. I actually caught him shamelessly flirting with his ex a couple months ago and we had a big talk about it. Two months later, nothing changed, and I found some evidence that he had really gone through with it all.

"So, let's say I have proof that you have been cheating on me, I just want to hear you say it. Did you?"
"No baby, of course not."
"I have proof, I know you are lying, why can't you fucking just tell me the truth?"
"I didn't do anything JFC!"
.....
<tell him what I found>
"Oh.... well.... <admits it, but starts belittling it by lying more>"

I think one of the biggest things I've had to get used to was going from my high school friends (primarily Christian, all happily married now) to the gay world where the same morals I'm accustomed to don't seem to exist. I realize this kind of stuff happens in any group of people, but I haven't seen any of it from my old HS friends.

The whole situation is just really aggravating to me. I never thought that I'd be with him for the rest of my life or anything, but why can't I have some fucking respect? My favorite part of the aftermath is his reaction. There are a lot of "I'm so sorry" and "I love you so much" but most of the time he's talking about himself. "I'm not this type of person!" "I never thought I would do this kind of thing!" or "I want to stay with you!"

Thanks dickweed, that sure clears things up about how much you care for yourself versus anyone else.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.

Embar Angylwrath
President: Rsak Fan Club
Posts: 11674
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:31 am
Location: Top of the food chain

Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:48 am

If it helps Tax, when people cheat, its all about them. Its never about the person that is getting cheated on. They cheat and have infidelities because of how they feel or want to feel about themselves.

Klast is flat-dead wrong about infidelity. He said its because a person isn't getting a need met from the realtionship. That's not true. The person is incomplete, and doesn't have the emotional tools to deal with complex feelings. There may be aspects about the relationship that reveal the personal shortcomings to the cheater. but infidelity is never, ever about anything but the cheater. You just happened to be collateral damage.

That being said, time to walk forward with your life. There's a lesson here for you (and I don't mean a wagging the finger lesson, I mean a real life lesson... you can usually find them in times of pain). This experience probably gave you the opportunity to learn about your character, about places in your heart you didn't even know you had, about your ability to handle and process pain, and it will eventually teach you about your capacity for forgiveness (which many people misunderstand as a gift to the cheater, but its a gift to yourself, since its the only healthy way to set down the emotional burden and move on).

Sorry it happened to you Tax, really I am. But something about you makes me think you're going to come out ok on this, and be a more complete and authentic person because of it.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
Alarius

User avatar
Taxious
Rum Guzzler
Posts: 5054
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:16 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Denial

Post by Taxious » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:53 am

Klast Brell wrote:"If you decide you are going to sleep with someone else, break up with me first. If I am not giving you what you need, break up with me. If you cant find satisfaction and happiness with me, leave me. Being dumped hurts. But being cheated on hurts so much more."
It's weird that you bring this up, because the dbag and I had that same conversation a long time ago. We dated (openly) for half a year before we had the "lets make this official talk" and what is quoted above was definitely in there. I wonder how long I actually got him to myself for after that talk. A week, maybe.

I don't understand why it's so hard to interject the truth about your feelings in a conversation like that. Instead of "yeah, lets be exclusive" why not fucking tell the truth "I'm still teabagging my ex, I'm not ready yet, sorry." ??????

I actually lost a guy I used to date that way a couple years ago, but he did eventually come back and tell me that he was happy I told him the truth about things. "I want to be in a relationship with you" "I don't want to be in a relationship right now, but I would like to keep dating" "I'm sorry I don't want to do this any more then." "Alright, I'm sorry." Done.

Why can't people tell the truth?
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.

User avatar
Taxious
Rum Guzzler
Posts: 5054
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:16 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Denial

Post by Taxious » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:03 am

Embar Angylwrath wrote: ... time to walk forward with your life. There's a lesson here for you (and I don't mean a wagging the finger lesson, I mean a real life lesson... you can usually find them in times of pain). This experience probably gave you the opportunity to learn about your character, about places in your heart you didn't even know you had, about your ability to handle and process pain, and it will eventually teach you about your capacity for forgiveness (which many people misunderstand as a gift to the cheater, but its a gift to yourself, since its the only healthy way to set down the emotional burden and move on).

Sorry it happened to you Tax, really I am. But something about you makes me think you're going to come out ok on this, and be a more complete and authentic person because of it.
It gets easier every time. :wink:

I really don't mean to come off as whiny and pathetic, I just need to rage a little to people that don't know him. Although it doesn't seem like it, I have already made a great deal of progress forgiving him. It's something I learned as necessary the last time this happened to me. The cheating is for him, the forgiveness is for me.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.

User avatar
Ariannda Kusanagi
WTB New Title
Posts: 4002
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:36 pm
Location: STL

Re: Denial

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:38 am

Taxious wrote:The cheating is for him, the forgiveness is for me.
VERY good !
Ariannda, in every game its Ariannda !
Babymage !©
Arch Magus of 70 long ass seasons - RETIRED
Battle tag Ariannda #1491


We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

User avatar
Harlowe
Nubile nuptaphobics ftw
Posts: 10640
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:13 pm
Location: My underground lair

Re: Denial

Post by Harlowe » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:12 am

Taxious wrote:
Embar Angylwrath wrote: ... time to walk forward with your life. There's a lesson here for you (and I don't mean a wagging the finger lesson, I mean a real life lesson... you can usually find them in times of pain). This experience probably gave you the opportunity to learn about your character, about places in your heart you didn't even know you had, about your ability to handle and process pain, and it will eventually teach you about your capacity for forgiveness (which many people misunderstand as a gift to the cheater, but its a gift to yourself, since its the only healthy way to set down the emotional burden and move on).

Sorry it happened to you Tax, really I am. But something about you makes me think you're going to come out ok on this, and be a more complete and authentic person because of it.
It gets easier every time. :wink:

I really don't mean to come off as whiny and pathetic, I just need to rage a little to people that don't know him. Although it doesn't seem like it, I have already made a great deal of progress forgiving him. It's something I learned as necessary the last time this happened to me. The cheating is for him, the forgiveness is for me.
You aren't coming across as whiny and pathetic, you sound hurt and frustrated. You are one of the last people here I'd ever picture being whiny & pathetic btw.

User avatar
Select
VP: Rsak Fan Club
Posts: 4189
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:23 am
Location: Cabilis
Contact:

Re: Denial

Post by Select » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:38 am

"I believe people cheat because they are not getting what they need from the relationship.
I think some people cheat because they feel entitled and don't really consider anyone but themselves. Along Embar's opinion.

I don't believe in forgiving every time a person wrongs me. I believe in picking the worst and hating them, writing them off if I can't use them for professional/social gains, and moving on to better people. They eventually fade from my memory as I replace them with new people. I'm happy and focused on the new people in my life in the end. The whole forgive every time is too "good little Christian" for me and I have a lot of negative opinions about forgiving for every little wronging. Whatever is working for you though, Tax, is most important. We can't all fit the template. ;)
Image

User avatar
Fobbon Lazyfoot
Grand Inspector Inquisitor Commander
Posts: 2642
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:48 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Denial

Post by Fobbon Lazyfoot » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:11 pm

That sucks tax.

Back to the subject of denial, though, I think its not a bad idea if you have better shit to do than be stressed out. If my GF cheated on me during week 9 I probably would let myself deny it until after finals =P
I like posting.

Freecare Spiritwise
Grand Pontificator
Posts: 3015
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:35 pm

Re: Denial

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:41 pm

Taxious wrote:Why can't people tell the truth?
They're either scared of the consequences of the truth or they're ashamed of it. Pretty much has to be one or the other (or both).

Most people would rather have a pretty lie than the ugly truth. Not me - I want to know things straight up, and the people in my life that aren't straight with me don't stay a part of my life - period. Life is too short to fuck around.

User avatar
Garrdor
Damnit Jim!
Posts: 2927
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2002 9:02 pm
Location: Oregon
Contact:

Re: Denial

Post by Garrdor » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:19 pm

Image
Image
Didn't your mama ever tell you not to tango with a carrot?

User avatar
Klast Brell
Sublime Prince of teh Royal Sekrut Strat
Posts: 4315
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:17 am
Location: Minneapolis MN
Contact:

Re: Denial

Post by Klast Brell » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:20 pm

"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan 1987

Freecare Spiritwise
Grand Pontificator
Posts: 3015
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:35 pm

Re: Denial

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:02 pm

Not a bad article actually, though I wonder if Mrs. Klast knows that you're surfing eHarmony ;)

Embar Angylwrath
President: Rsak Fan Club
Posts: 11674
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:31 am
Location: Top of the food chain

Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:13 pm

Sorry Klast, if you read that eHarmony article carefully, and I mean REALLY carefully, you'll see that
1) No one knows the extent of infidelities
2) The article says it can't establsih one true cause (but if you read deeper, it's all about a selfish choice.. hey we make them all the time)

People who commit infidelity do so because they feel their emotional needs are more important than anyhting else. Hell, I'd like to say it was rational thought, but it's not. It's primal. It's all about preservation of self, and so can't be grouped with higher thought. Sure, there's rational thought involved, but it's completely overwhlemed by the lizard brain. I'm convinced that some people are pretty much immune to it, and some people will succumb most every time.

Again, Klast is dead-wrong about infidelity being about needs not being met in a relationship. It's about the person not feeling good enough about themselves to succumb to infidelity. No relationship will address or solve that very personal, very intimate, view of one's self. People who cheat are incomplete (we all are to some degree), but at the core, they are very, very selfish people. Doesn't mean they can't evolve and learn, some can. But at the stage of their lives where they can choose to betray others who they profess to care about, they are deluding themselves about their capacity for empathy and love.

Sorry Klast, this fits you bro. You haven't seen the truth of this yet, and until you do, you're living in a denial of yourself. Your statements of "If I want to cheat, I'll tell you and break up" are pretty pathetic, if you ask me. You think you're doping your wife a favor by telling her that? You think you're somehow noble by giving the "heads-up" if you want to cheat?

For one... if it comes down to it, you'll cheat, and you won't tell her. Why? Because people who don't want to cheat, won't. You'd be better off by saying "Honey, I fell myself attracted to another woman, and I know that signals something is causing me to drift from the relationship. I don't wan't to drift, and I want your help. Let's explore this together."

What.. you're gonna just let it get to the point of infidelity and give her the choice of staying or going? You're one brave fucking guy Klast. Way to take the high road. Way to be truthful (but not honest).
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
Alarius

User avatar
Harlowe
Nubile nuptaphobics ftw
Posts: 10640
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:13 pm
Location: My underground lair

Re: Denial

Post by Harlowe » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:10 pm

Embar people have different ways of dealing with things. What works for you isn't going to work for everyone and our individual experiences don't define relationships in general for everyone. Obviously.

You have your way, which is right for you and he knows what he wants or needs. He HAS been in those shoes so it's kind of arrogant and flat out wrong to claim he wouldn't know what he'd do, he's been on both ends of it and now feels like he has a strong idea of how he wants to go about things in the future. It might not be anywhere near the way you would handle it, but so what.

You think it's ridiculous, great, it's cowardly & ridiculous for you - but perhaps not so for him and Mrs. Klast. Maybe he thinks your way is cowardly and ridiculous. I mean come on, what is the point in attacking him for handling his relationship differently than you do?

Personally, I think anyone that deals with relationships honestly, in whatever way they feel is right for them and their circumstance is brave and is doing the right thing.

Embar Angylwrath
President: Rsak Fan Club
Posts: 11674
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:31 am
Location: Top of the food chain

Re: Denial

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:47 pm

Great for you Harlowe.

Have you lived what you're commenting on?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
Alarius

User avatar
Select
VP: Rsak Fan Club
Posts: 4189
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:23 am
Location: Cabilis
Contact:

Re: Denial

Post by Select » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:08 pm

Advice comes in different forms from this forum which is one reason why I like it here. Sometimes the advice is pretty universal (Ari's situation), but we have different reactions to Tax's. In the end, he figures out what works best for him.
Personally, I like it that when the person passes by you, they tuck their tail between their legs and slump. :twisted:
Image

User avatar
Ariannda Kusanagi
WTB New Title
Posts: 4002
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:36 pm
Location: STL

Re: Denial

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:10 am

It makes me wonder EMbar... My ex husband has been remarried for working on 3 years now, and he is not content with the sex life they share, so the point where he's asking me for sex. Maybe it's because I'm a safe bet and I'll say no but thats not the only thing that bothers me. He called me up a couple of months ago and asked if he could have the kids one off weekend, as he'd "be in the area". First I said yes, then I had some questions. I mean if he was going to be close because of some work training or extra schedule or something I just wanted to the know the schedule so that I could make arrangements. The further and further I dug into it the worse of a feeling I got so finally i came right out and told him "If you're shacking up with some bitch you're not having the kids... period. I don't care if it's after your tryst, i won't allow them to be around you at all during that period of time". He seemed a little taken aback to begin with, but that was indeed his plan. I'm sure the kids were also a cover for his whereabouts. Anyway i don't understand why he's not talking to her more, and not enforcing his position, suggesting counseling or anything else other then planning on his cheating. He's clearly unhappy, and I wish him to be, but his affairs are not my doing or concern until they involve the kids. I wonder which one of them is living in denial... her for thinking her husband loves her (and knowing if i wanted her husband I could have him... or anyone else could too) or him for thinking a girlfriend would solve all his problems (or worse, sleeping with me). However I suggested what Klast has said "Why cheat when you can just divorce her, and then sleep with whom ever you want whenever you want"
Ariannda, in every game its Ariannda !
Babymage !©
Arch Magus of 70 long ass seasons - RETIRED
Battle tag Ariannda #1491


We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

Post Reply