Atheism

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Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Atheism

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:45 pm

Klast Brell wrote:First cause? Why so?
1 If there is a first cause, why must it be god above all alternate possibilities? I say the first cause was the Big Bang itself.
2 You counter asking "what caused the Big Bang?" But your question is is equally valid to this one "what caused god?" You may find that your answer and mine are the same. You say god caused himself? I say the big bang caused itself. You say There was nothing before god? I say the big bang created spacetime. There was no time before the big bang, therefore there can be no "before the big bang".
There is no causality for god.. its kinda in the definition of god.
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Re: Atheism

Post by Baginns Hobbiton » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:44 pm

Hey there,
Ddrak wrote: I think Baggins was asking why the rules of Physics were the way they were (why does General Relativity work the way it does, why are there only 4 fundamental forces, etc.) which is something science can never say, except to use the Anthropic Principle - which is quite sound but somewhat unsatisfying.
Exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks!
Klast wrote: First cause? Why so?
1 If there is a first cause, why must it be god above all alternate possibilities? I say the first cause was the Big Bang itself.
2 You counter asking "what caused the Big Bang?" But your question is is equally valid to this one "what caused god?" You may find that your answer and mine are the same. You say god caused himself? I say the big bang caused itself. You say There was nothing before god? I say the big bang created spacetime. There was no time before the big bang, therefore there can be no "before the big bang".
The law of conservation of matter and energy states that there is a constant amount of matter/energy in our universe which can never be created or destroyed. Where did the vast amount of energy required to spawn our universe come from? String Theory (I'm a little out dated, so correct me if I am wrong) states that it could be the transfer of energy from branes vibrating in higher dimensions. We then hit the same problem when we ask where that energy came from.

I agree that our two different questions are equally valid. In the end I think it comes down to faith. We can't really know because the question delves into a scenario that is before time, and outside our known universe. I believe it was a creator as God, by definition, exists outside of our known existence. To create something, you must be external of that thing.

Am I correct that you believe that we were all created by spontaneous combustion? I guess it is no more or less silly than my belief in an invisible father figure. I do not mean that in a scathing or cynical way. Simply an acceptance that neither of us can prove our point or really back up our beliefs with fact.
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Re: Atheism

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:49 pm

Srsly am i the only one who caught that DD's gonna have a baby ?
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Re: Atheism

Post by Embar Angylwrath » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:02 pm

Ariannda Kusanagi wrote:Srsly am i the only one who caught that DD's gonna have a baby ?
No, he isn't. His wife is. Credit where credit is due. I'm sure Dd gave her the best 30 seconds of her life, but SHE's the one having the baby.
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Re: Atheism

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:56 pm

Ever taught a teenage girl to drive? Being daddy is no picnic either ;)

Grats in advance Ddrak.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Select » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:51 am

Ever taught a teenage girl to drive? Being daddy is no picnic either ;)
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Re: Atheism

Post by Arathena » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:29 am

One history of the Christian bible and mythos. It is not impartial, but has some worthwhile points.

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
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Re: Atheism

Post by Klast Brell » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:19 pm

Baginns Hobbiton wrote: The law of conservation of matter and energy states that there is a constant amount of matter/energy in our universe which can never be created or destroyed. Where did the vast amount of energy required to spawn our universe come from? String Theory (I'm a little out dated, so correct me if I am wrong) states that it could be the transfer of energy from branes vibrating in higher dimensions. We then hit the same problem when we ask where that energy came from.
Our conflict remains. If conservation of mass and energy apply tho the universe then it applies to god. Where did the vast amount of energy required to spawn god come from? You say it was not required for god? Then Hawking and I say it was not required for the universe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking-Ha ... e_Function
Baginns Hobbiton wrote: I agree that our two different questions are equally valid. In the end I think it comes down to faith. We can't really know because the question delves into a scenario that is before time, and outside our known universe. I believe it was a creator as God, by definition, exists outside of our known existence. To create something, you must be external of that thing.
we still have the conflict. The universe requires a creator but god does not?
Baginns Hobbiton wrote: Am I correct that you believe that we were all created by spontaneous combustion? I guess it is no more or less silly than my belief in an invisible father figure. I do not mean that in a scathing or cynical way. Simply an acceptance that neither of us can prove our point or really back up our beliefs with fact.
I don't Accept that. Facts that back up my beliefs emerge all the time. The Hartle-Hawking state was discovered just 8 years ago.
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Re: Atheism

Post by Klast Brell » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:33 pm

Arathena wrote:One history of the Christian bible and mythos. It is not impartial, but has some worthwhile points.

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
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Re: Atheism

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:19 pm

Klast is an android sent to Earth to piss in our cheerios.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Ddrak » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:26 pm

Klast Brell wrote:If conservation of mass and energy apply tho the universe then it applies to god.
Nope. That makes the assumption that God is in the universe and not separate from it. If you declare God as the creator of the universe then he necessarily must exist beyond spacetime as (like you pointed out) time itself didn't exist before the big bang.
The universe requires a creator but god does not?
I wouldn't say "requires", as that implies some sort of proof. God may create the universe - yes. A bigger God may create God, sure. It's all metaphysics at that point anyway so you can say whatever you want.
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Sure - the author is flamingly gay. He even postulates that Paul (of biblical fame) was a suppressed homosexual. He makes some excellent points for his case too.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Arathena » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:09 pm

Klast Brell wrote:
Arathena wrote:One history of the Christian bible and mythos. It is not impartial, but has some worthwhile points.

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
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Re: Atheism

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:27 am

You know what REALLY gets me ? There are times in life when I WANT to believe in a God when there's someone I can talk to who will tell me it's alright and tell me everything will be better and that I'm not alone and that I'm loved. But what hurts more then that is there's no response. My father will do the same thing AND put his arms around me, but where is God when I ever needed him most ? It's easy enough to want something, it's a hell of a lot harder finding it.

/bitter message off

It's the biterness and the anger and the hurt that probably keep people from God most often when they need a God the most. How am i supposed to believe in God when terrible things happen, or babies are born who need heart surgeries right away, or I turn out to have been manipulated for a very long time, or my kids are in a car accident and don't survive due to someone elses negligence, or my parents up and die suddenly. These are all natural occurrences I realize and some people find God in a tragedy but I think most often when people want to, then they can't find him. However that might be like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Re: Atheism

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:08 am

That was a really good no bullshit post Ari.

To me that's a much better argument for the non-existence of God than the rational argument. How could a higher power sit on the sidelines and watch any number of messed up things happening in the world without taking action? And I've never bought the religious argument that "your child was murdered because it's God's will." I refuse to believe that God wills suffering, but it's clear that if there is a God, then he allows it. Why?

To me the answer is the same as why we allow our children to sometimes suffer as part of their life lessons. My daughter has paid a terrible price for her life lessons. She's been dragged out of the house in handcuffs, and she crashed the brand new car I gave her with no insurance and not only lost the car but got a big bill from the city afterwards. Probably 90% of the suffering in her life could've been prevented by my interference. But I won't do that. I could step in and pay the price of most of her mistakes but then I'd actually be preventing her development as a person. You know as well as I do that it's every parent's instinct to do that.

So there's part of my answer; all things contain a lesson. If the big cosmic "Daddy" stepped in and covered our mistakes, what kind of children would that make us? The only lesson would be that if we sat on our asses long enough, the guy in charge will fix everything.

As far as the seemingly random acts of suffering by the universe against its participants: Hinduism would say that when a baby dies from a heart defect or a guy gets killed from a brick that fell off of a building just as he was walking by then that is their Karma. Factor in a belief in some form reincarnation and these questions get really really interesting. Karma says that the baby has the heart defect as part of some cosmic correction to a past life transgression. Seth says the baby has the heart defect by choice, as some "pre-life" agreed upon lesson plan.

So I guess my thoughts on this could be distilled down to:

It's not that God wills the pain and suffering of the universe, it's that the universe wills it upon itself.

Science tells us that pain and suffering are purely cause and effect. I agree with this execpt that Science makes no allowance for free will, which to me is just rationalizing away personal responsibility. Science tells us we are powerless pawns in a giant chain of cause and effect, where to me I see free will driving the process (which is where the responsibility comes in). Also, science makes no allowances for a greater purpose behind this chain. Personally I can't see how people who honestly believe there's not one ounce of purpose in the world even make it through the day. Why shouldn't I just follow my destructive impulses then? At the very least I should be screwing the cashier at the grocery store and cheating my employer. But I don't because I am my brother's keeper.

Edit: Most engineers I know believe the world is "working as intended", even though we have widely varying thoughts as to why.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Garrdor » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:50 am

It's not that God wills the pain and suffering of the universe, it's that the universe wills it upon itself.

Science tells us that pain and suffering are purely cause and effect. I agree with this execpt that Science makes no allowance for free will, which to me is just rationalizing away personal responsibility. Science tells us we are powerless pawns in a giant chain of cause and effect, where to me I see free will driving the process (which is where the responsibility comes in). Also, science makes no allowances for a greater purpose behind this chain. Personally I can't see how people who honestly believe there's not one ounce of purpose in the world even make it through the day. Why shouldn't I just follow my destructive impulses then? At the very least I should be screwing the cashier at the grocery store and cheating my employer. But I don't because I am my brother's keeper.
:shock:

...

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Re: Atheism

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:14 pm

San Dimas will soon fall into the ocean, as prophesized by Nostradamus. That would be most excellent.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Ariannda Kusanagi » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:28 pm

I woke up this morning very angry and very hurt. I'm having a RL crisis drama, my friends baby is having his second open heart surgery and he's 3 months old the first he had when he was 6 HOURS old. It's Christmas FFS ,it's supposed to be about family, and joy and love and HOPE and atm i feel utterly lost and hopeless, and I can't afford to feel that way... ever. I went to bed last night think about about all of it and I realized that i could pray to God, to ask him to heal my hurt, to let the baby be ok but God isn't going to make me stop hurting, he's not going to cure the baby, he's not going to help those that need to see they are a part of the problem accept the blame instead of dishing it out. Like i said my father will put his arms around me, let me cry, and tell me everything will be ok and I'll be all right, but that's supposed to be "Gods Job" and sorry but I'm just not feeling it. And yes in my case my parents could have stepped in and said something, but what about Dezi and her baby ? she couldn't have done anything differently. She did everything exactly right. What about the woman on the pregnancy board I went to when I was pregnant who's baby grew without a brain and was literally being kept alive by her and would never take a breath on her own ? What about THOSE people. Honestly my pain and suffering are nothing compared to what i COULD be experiencing, but that hardly seems the point. My heart aches for myself and for others, and who's supposed to heal THAT ? Some cosmic genius who will tell me time heals all things and I just to wait ? I don't want instant gratification, I accept my part of my own problems and I have been working a very long time to correct OTHER mistakes, and every time a door slams shut I can admit i probably spend too long staring at IT to see the newly opened windows... but I do want some answers, and I just don't seem to be getting any.
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Re: Atheism

Post by Kulaf » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:05 pm

Big Bang......Let there be light.......pretty much the same thing if you look at the large picture. Acceptance of the creation of the universe is a matter of unprovable fact. Science will never prove it.....religion has a chance to......based off known precepts.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Freecare Spiritwise » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 pm

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's baby, and I hope that he comes through surgery ok. Sounds like you're being a good friend and supporting them as best you can. May seem like a little thing to you but I guarantee it's a big thing to your friend.

I have a really hard time myself seeing the meaning in something like that, but I do believe it's there, somewhere.

So like I was saying before that's the thing about being free. You can always choose to hope. You can always choose to find some joy even in sorrow. While you're alive no force in the universe can prevent you from having hope, or seeing beauty or meaning in things. So I would say in times of sorrow don't look up, look within, and look right next to you to your family and friends, the people whom you love and who love you. That's where the meaning is, within ourselves and in each other. Not some unseen force or abstract philosophy. I would say that if you want to see God, you're more likely to see him in the eyes of a child and the arms of a loved one rather than in the sky or the pages of a book. I honestly think you're looking for meaning in the wrong places.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Klast Brell » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:30 pm

Freecare Spiritwise wrote: To me the answer is the same as why we allow our children to sometimes suffer as part of their life lessons. My daughter has paid a terrible price for her life lessons. She's been dragged out of the house in handcuffs, and she crashed the brand new car I gave her with no insurance and not only lost the car but got a big bill from the city afterwards. Probably 90% of the suffering in her life could've been prevented by my interference. But I won't do that. I could step in and pay the price of most of her mistakes but then I'd actually be preventing her development as a person. You know as well as I do that it's every parent's instinct to do that.
You seem to imply that you saw it coming and did nothing about it. If that is the case then you are one hell of a role model. You are lucky your daughter wasn't hurt worse when she crashed that car. Preventing her development as a person indeed.
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